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Topic: Non-binary option for gender and pronouns displayed

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spyro879103
 
Last Active
9/21 2:10pm
I think there should be more options for gender, such as agender, bigender, polygender etc. Or even just an option for non-binary / genderqueer identities

Also, I think somewhere on each members post should say what pronouns they go by. I know it's horrible to be referred to as he/she when I'm they, or when someone may present more masculine but are actually female. Maybe next to the username, like This
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GoldenCelebi
 
Last Active
9/13 7:41pm
This has been regularly suggested, mostly on the Voice Your Opinion sticky, and has received near-unanimous public support. Unfortunately, the parallel discussion on the staff boards, started in December 2012, has yet to reach an amicable conclusion.
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spyro879103
 
Last Active
9/21 2:10pm
GoldenCelebi if you don't mind me asking, what's slowing it down? It's not like it'd damage anyone, and it could probably be implemented very easily. Any idea what's making the staff not want it to be included?
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GoldenCelebi
 
Last Active
9/13 7:41pm
Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure I'm not allowed to comment on staff discussions that don't directly involve me. Sorry.

All I can really say is that it wouldn't be particularly difficult to implement, but you knew that already.
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spyro879103
 
Last Active
9/21 2:10pm
Okay, thanks for your help

I'll leave this thread open so anyone who may want to comment/add their opinion can do so and hopefully persuade the staff etc
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Sonnic
 
Name
Callum
ACNL Town
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6/16 1:06am
It probably just shows the old fashioned attitudes of the older generation. Many senior members of staff will be older & so have values more reflective of the time when they grew up. Whereas the majority of regular users are more accepting and open minded as they're younger and growing up as this progress in society is taking place.

It's a shame but we can't do anything if the senior staff don't allow it.
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zura
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yankees24cano
 
Name
Cano
ACNL Town
Last Active
1:27pm
I think that in the VYO thread, we were split between an open preferred pronoun field, more options to the current system, or turning gender into a text field.

I personally prefer the "preferred pronoun" field because that's really all that matters.  If I'm wondering what someone's gender is, I'm probably actually wondering what to call them.  If someone doesn't identify as male or female, I would have no clue what to call them.  Preferred pronoun would solve that problem and I'd assume would minimize controversy.
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spyro879103
 
Last Active
9/21 2:10pm
yankees24cano I think it's important to have both options available, whereas people who identify within th gender binary can just use the lists on the profile, I have to use characters in the OSAM page, if I did want to be openly non-binary. Pronouns are important because people who experience gender identity disorder etc dislike being called their DGAB
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wakkitty
 
Name
Myles
ACNL Town
Last Active
9/29/2018 2:36pm
Having both a field for gender is equally as important as having a pronoun field, in my opinion. Knowing someone's gender lets you know what honorifics to use for them. (e.g. boy, girl, and miscellaneous titles one might refer to someone as like prince or princess.) In the case that there's only a pronoun field, you might inadvertantly misgender someone; some non-binary people assume he or she pronouns but don't necessarily like being called a boy/man or girl/woman, respectively.
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yankees24cano
 
Name
Cano
ACNL Town
Last Active
1:27pm
Even if there is a gender field, I promise that 95% of the people on ACC won't know what to call someone who chooses anything other than male or female and will probably just choose boy or girl.  If they do know, it will probably be the result of the person who doesn't want to be called boy or girl specifically telling them what they want to be referred to as (and that's exactly what would happen now as well).  Plus, if someone does accidentally call someone something that they don't like to be called, is that a big deal?  They just say "I'd prefer to be called _____" and go on with their life.

The cases you referenced are very specific and not likely to be used.  How many times have you called someone any of those titles you listed while on ACC?  I can't think of a single time.

And there are people who disagree with listing multiple genders.  According to a poll done earlier this year, 46% of millennials in the US believe that there are exactly 2 distinct genders.  I'd think that if you expand that to the whole population, that number would be bigger.  So while there is support, there isn't anywhere close to a consensus.  I'm guessing the reason the staff haven't approved it is because some of them disagree with the idea.
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wakkitty
 
Name
Myles
ACNL Town
Last Active
9/29/2018 2:36pm
We use gender neutral honorifics in our daily language, similarly to how we use they/them pronouns to refer to someone of an unknown gender or in the hypothetical.
In fact, you used one in your post just now: "person." Wouldn't you agree that most people who don't know the gender of someone would just default to that word, as you did? Just something to consider.
"Plus, if someone does accidentally call someone something that they don't like to be called, is that a big deal?"
This varies per trans non-binary person. It is important to keep in mind that some people do in fact experience psychological distress when being misgendered, and a gender field could help avoid this distress.
"The cases you referenced are very specific and not likely to be used."
Yes, good point. They weren't the best examples, but there are many more gendered honorifics that are used out there. Someone having the idea of, "Hey, this person apparently isn't a boy or a girl so let me avoid using this term when referring to them." is good! It can be any term that someone could spit out at any time, so why not just avoid it?
"And there are people who disagree with listing multiple genders."
Well, here's another thing to consider: do you think people on ACC that don't agree with having multiple genders listed would be disrespectful and neglectful of someone's gender given that this feature is implemented? Or just go with it and use common gender neutral language?
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Hadger
 
Name
David
ACNL Town
Last Active
11:51am
I don't see an issue with having both a preferred pronoun field and a gender field, both with text boxes. Sure, you could argue that we don't need one if we have the other, but is that really an issue? I don't think it's a problem if, after both fields are added, it turns out that we don't need one of the two gender identification fields. I personally don't think that both are absolutely necessary, but at the same time, I don't see a problem with having both.
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yankees24cano
 
Name
Cano
ACNL Town
Last Active
1:27pm
"We use gender neutral honorifics in our daily language, similarly to how we use they/them pronouns to refer to someone of an unknown gender or in the hypothetical.
In fact, you used one in your post just now: "person." Wouldn't you agree that most people who don't know the gender of someone would just default to that word, as you did? Just something to consider."
Yes, we use gender neutral ones frequently, but how often do we use specific ones?  The only times that I really use the words "boy" or "girl" are if I'm telling a story.  What difference would there be if people could list anything they wanted for their gender?  People would still use words like person.

"This varies per trans non-binary person. It is important to keep in mind that some people do in fact experience psychological distress when being misgendered, and a gender field could help avoid this distress."
If someone is on here and is complaining about being misgendered (and by that, I mean more than a polite correction), don't you think that would be offensive to the gender that they were called?  I've been called she/a girl/female before because I had long hair, and if my face wasn't showing, I could be fairly easily mistaken for a girl.  I corrected them because I preferred to be called male/a man because I am one, but I wasn't offended by it.  If I was offended and showing distress after being called female, I'd think that would be offensive to females because I'd be implying that it's bad to be a female.

"Yes, good point. They weren't the best examples, but there are many more gendered honorifics that are used out there. Someone having the idea of, "Hey, this person apparently isn't a boy or a girl so let me avoid using this term when referring to them." is good! It can be any term that someone could spit out at any time, so why not just avoid it?"
Or they could use the not specified option which we currently have, and it would have the same effect.

"Well, here's another thing to consider: do you think people on ACC that don't agree with having multiple genders listed would be disrespectful and neglectful of someone's gender given that this feature is implemented? Or just go with it and use common gender neutral language?"
I don't really know.  I know I'm one of the people who disagrees with having more than 2 genders listed on here, and I wouldn't intentionally be disrespectful.  I don't think it's safe to assume that everyone would think like me.  I don't have much experience with the subject, but in the little bit I do have, there was quite a bit of harassment.  There was a girl who went to my school who decided in her senior year that she wanted to be called he/a male, and they were harassed a lot.  That's obviously not the same situation, but I think that if they decided they weren't either a male or a female, they would have been harassed even more.  We obviously have rules against that and mods who will enforce those rules, but that doesn't prevent it from happening before the mods can take action.  If there are people who are already dealing with issues relating to their identity who would come on here and get harassed more, that isn't good.

I do think it's absolutely likely that people will be neglectful of how people want to be referred to.  I know in the past, I have usually referred to someone as he if I wasn't sure of their gender.  Probably a mix of the fact that I'm male and that a majority of the people on the sites I go on are male.  If that isn't good and could be offensive (I'm not sure, you seem to imply that it might be), I'll try to not do that, but that's what I've been doing and I am in the habit of.  I think there are a lot of people who do the same thing.  So yes, I do think a lot of people will call those who don't consider themselves male or female either he or she just because they don't check their profile and they are in the habit of calling people either he or she.
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spyro879103
 
Last Active
9/21 2:10pm
"If someone is on here and is complaining about being misgendered (and by that, I mean more than a polite correction), don't you think that would be offensive to the gender that they were called?  I've been called she/a girl/female before because I had long hair, and if my face wasn't showing, I could be fairly easily mistaken for a girl.  I corrected them because I preferred to be called male/a man because I am one, but I wasn't offended by it.  If I was offended and showing distress after being called female, I'd think that would be offensive to females because I'd be implying that it's bad to be a female."
It's different for many trans and non-binary people. If people are called the gender that they were assigned at birth, it hurts them. For example, I identify as agender, even though I present as a male. Even though it looks like I am male, doesn't mean I feel comfortable being called male.

Also, by that same logic, taking offence to anything someone says offends others.

"Or they could use the not specified option which we currently have, and it would have the same effect."
But this doesn't eliminate the problem of misgendering. Take it from a non-binary person - misgendering hurts. The only way I could describe it to non-trans people is if someone calls you a nickname of some sort that you hate and makes you feel extremely depressed etc. That's the closest I can  get to explaining what misgendering is to cis people.

"So yes, I do think a lot of people will call those who don't consider themselves male or female either he or she just because they don't check their profile and they are in the habit of calling people either he or she."
as I mentioned in the OP, I believe, the pronouns they go by could be listed near their username. This wouldn't be difficult for people to look at, and if people don't know, it avoids any awkwardness with sending them a PT saying "What pronouns do you use again?"
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Liv909
 
Name
Liv
ACNL Town
Last Active
9/20 1:09pm
I personally would be offended if I was called a man, because that is implying that I don't look like a woman (what I am) to people. Grant you, I have long hair, but let's just say someone thinks I'm a real hippie surfer dude. While there are and shouldn't be any stereotypes to dictate what a person looks like, the label is still there.

It's just as offensive as someone saying a Korean person looks Chinese or a Columbian person is Mexican. There's no specific thing that says a person has to or doesn't have to look a certain way, but the assumptions and the hurt still remain.

On a more on topic note, spyro is right to point out there would be less awkwardness. To some people, the topic is soft and they're sensitive to it. If there was some sort of way to determine this easily and quickly (not reading through an entire profile), then a lot of awkwardness and potentially riled up emotion/hurt feelings would be prevented.
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spyro879103
 
Last Active
9/21 2:10pm
^ I guess my brain wasn't working that well this morning it also enforces gender stereotypes, and reinforces the idea that's there's specific things for males and females, which IMO is far from true.

Going back to the original point of the thread, even just an option added to the gender section that says non-binary or genderqu**r (Don't know if that counts as using a slur. I suppose it's a reclaimed one)
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Liv909
 
Name
Liv
ACNL Town
Last Active
9/20 1:09pm
Non-binary to me is a great, flexible option that causes neither offense nor hurt. It's the best compromise IMO when it comes to implementing a potential third option with OR without the text box.
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wakkitty
 
Name
Myles
ACNL Town
Last Active
9/29/2018 2:36pm
"On a more on topic note, spyro is right to point out there would be less awkwardness. To some people, the topic is soft and they're sensitive to it."
Precisely. It's a sensitive thing to most trans people, in fact.

"Yes, we use gender neutral ones frequently, but how often do we use specific ones?"
More often than you think. Casual statements such as, "he's a nice guy!" Little things that add up. The point I'm trying to make is that it's extremely noticeable to non-binary people and for their sake something should be done about the gender field.
"Or they could use the not specified option which we currently have, and it would have the same effect."
I disagree. I'd think that most people disregard lack of a gender field in your profile (what not specified does). Shouldn't it be an option for non-binary people to list their gender if men and women can too? The current gender field just simply isn't inclusive and as a non-binary person, I feel that "not specified" doesn't suffice.
"So yes, I do think a lot of people will call those who don't consider themselves male or female either he or she just because they don't check their profile and they are in the habit of calling people either he or she."
This issue would be nicely fixed by having your pronouns near your username, and if someone wanted clarification as for what honorifics to use, they could refer to your profile to look at your gender.

"Non-binary to me is a great, flexible option that causes neither offense nor hurt. It's the best compromise IMO when it comes to implementing a potential third option with OR without the text box."
I agree! It's simple and inclusive.
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Liv909
 
Name
Liv
ACNL Town
Last Active
9/20 1:09pm
Also, I would just like to point out for clarification's sake that there are two main reasons "not specified' is not a viable option or replacement in this situation.

A: Pressing "not specified" removes gender from the user's profile like it's not even there. This is more of an option for people who don't want to disclose their gender or for younger users who don't want to disclose it for privacy reasons.

B: Pressing "not specified" provides the assumption that the people who choose it do not want to specify their gender, but in the case of people outside the binary, this may not be an issue. They may be happy to disclose their gender but are currently not able to in a quick, efficient way. We've already hashed in past discussions that poring through a potentially huge OSAM is too time-consuming for people if they just want to determine the user's gender.
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emma_lee
 
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Emily
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12/16/2018 1:14pm
If your gender isn't listed, just put not specified. Though I am LGBT, I don't think ACC is the place to be discussing hot button topics out in the open like that.
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spyro879103
 
Last Active
9/21 2:10pm
emma_lee but some people want to talk openly about it. Hiding conversations and making it seem "weird" to be trans or non-binary is the source of transphbia and cisnormativity. Also, no one said that they wanted to discuss it, just that there should be an option for it
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emma_lee
 
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Emily
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12/16/2018 1:14pm
You can talk openly about it if you like in PTs, but there is no reason for these types of discussions on the public boards. For site suggestions and Voice Your Opinion, sure, but don't expect an LGBT or 'talk about your gender identity' thread to be allowed on the off topic board.
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spyro879103
 
Last Active
9/21 2:10pm
Again, no one was saying that we wanted open conversation about it. It's because the fact that there's an option for malw and female only is extremely cissexist and goes to show how even in a society is generally accepting of MOGAI people still excludes them in specific sections
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emma_lee
 
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Emily
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12/16/2018 1:14pm
"some people want to talk openly about it"
Like I said, if you are not male or female, you do not need to specify it. There isn't a rule that says you absolutely must put your gender in your profile.
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spyro879103
 
Last Active
9/21 2:10pm
But it avoids misgendering and social awkwardness

Also, who is the feature change going to hurt? Who is going to be negatively impacted by having a non-binary gender option and ability to show pronouns? I think you're missing the original point.
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Site Suggestions Board » Topic: Non-binary option for gender and pronouns displayed

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