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» Site Suggestions Board
Topic: Community Exercise: Allow LGBTQA advertising Sticky

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iolite
 
Name
Ana´s
ACNL Town
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3/26 2:21pm
As a result of this thread, the Modmins would like to invite the Community to do our job.

Members will take on the role of Modmins, and the Modmins will sometimes take on the role of Members and sometimes be themselves.

For the purpose of this thread your job will be to discuss whether a LGBTQA advertising Sticky should be allowed on a public board on ACC.


Here are the rules and guidelines:

• Members should use this thread as a public version of a Modmin discussion thread.

• Modmins, when taking on the role of Members, will use this thread as the Voice Your Opinion thread.

• Members should work on this exercise without the help of any non-Modmin Staff.

• All of your discussions should take place here so that everyone can see the reasoning behind your proposals.

• Without flaming, trolling, emotion, swearing, or any other negative action or reaction, Members should discuss the pros and cons of allowing a LGBTQA advertising Sticky on the public boards.

• Although you should state your own opinions, you must also handle and consider opposing views that others may hold - even if you don't personally like or agree with their thoughts.

• Any posts made by Members which are not becoming of a Modmin, and which break Site Rules such as flaming and trolling, will be deleted.

• When you finally agree on a compromise, or win others over to your point of view, you will need to examine all the Site Rules and decide which ones need to be amended in order to allow the agreed changes.

• Don't forget to examine the possible consequences of amending those rules.

• Also, do you need new Site Rules? If yes, please write them and ensure they come with at least two types of violations and levels.

• When all the appropriate Site Rules are complete, you now have to work on the wording of a Site Announcement and the first post of the advertising Sticky.

Modmins will monitor this thread and offer genuine help, as Modmins, only at certain stages. At other times, Modmins acting as Members, may offer encouragement or just disrupt the thread with negative comments - some of which will be direct quotes that Members have used on the Voice Your Opinion thread. Occasionally, this thread may be Admin-Locked for short periods, or temporarily removed from view, to represent the times that Modmin attention is elsewhere, e.g. working a job all day, looking after children, running a home, doing chores, going to College or simply working on other things on ACC.  


What's the point of this? Well, we're giving you all an insight into what it takes to change rules, guidelines and policies, and we are also asking you to stay calm while in the line of fire. If you can see what it is like for Modmins, and what it takes to bring several viewpoints together, then maybe the future of all discussions will be much improved.  

One more thing, Modmins will write in italics when they are speaking as a Member, and will write in default text when being themselves.

If you are up for this challenge, get stuck in and kick off this discussion.

Good Luck.
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Dimentio95
 
Name
Chris
ACNL Town
Last Active
11:48am
In my opinion an advertising sticky would be a good compromise for handling topics that currently aren't welcome on public boards such as political current events discussions and LGBTQA discussions. It allows the modmins to continue pursuing the family-friendly image they want the public boards to have, and it allows people who wish to discuss those topics in PTs to have a greater chance at finding people to populate their PTs. I used to participate and host RPG games back when they were only allowed in PTs, and the RPG community was really helped by the addition of an advertising PT.

We would have to be careful to outline exactly why certain topics are allowed on this sort of sticky if we were to carry this out and why others aren't, and probably have to update the Topics Not Allowed rule to reflect that.
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Hadger
 
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David
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I agree with you completely. At the moment, it's difficult for PTs about topics banned from the public boards to get publicity, and a thread for advertising PTs would be a great solution to that. It would allow members to discuss topics that are considered controversial with many other members rather than with the few members who noticed the advertisement in someone's profile or signature.

People have brought up the possibility of members' bullying others in these threads, but I do trust that members would report people who are bullying other members in these thread. And, for example, in an LGBT+ private thread, a large majority of the members there would certainly be supporters of the LGBT+ community, so they would not just gang up on the member being bullied. The member would have everyone else in the thread to defend him or her. While bullying could be a problem, it would not be as huge of a problem since members would have many people who come to their defense when bullying occurs.
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Dimentio95
 
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Chris
ACNL Town
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Bullying is definitely a concern to some extent. What about adding a rule in Topics Not Allowed or Harrassment against asking to be added to a PT just to troll/bully other users. Would that be helpful?

The reporting system is still a valid way to keep many people from breaking rules even in these kinds of PTs, too. Harrassment is still harrassment.
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iolite
 
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Ana´s
ACNL Town
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3/26 2:21pm
Thank you both for starting this thread in such a pleasant and professional manner.
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Espio111
 
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Espio
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While the reporting system is a good way for catching harassment, we have to take into account the potential that some threads might not contain users that report people for harassment. There is always the potential that someone could be attacked in a less direct manner, and that person who was attacked might not be compelled to say anything for a variety of personal reasons. Would these particular PT's require various modmins to keep watch over them to avoid this type of occurrence? If so, we would potentially have to look into finding additional modmins if we can't handle the additional attention to these PT's with ones we have.

I feel like it isn't wise to assume that people in a PT will report anyone who is being harassed, because there could be situations where people are not aware of harassment if it occurs in less direct manners or could feel pressured to not say anything about it.

Another potential issue is if these particular PT's do require more moderation, how can we ensure that we are aware of these topics so that we can pay closer attention to them? If the community makes many of these PT's, it could potentially become harder to catch all of them and keep an eye on them. Perhaps we could make a rule where these topics are only allowed when approved by modmins to avoid repeated topics and such to make things easier on us to an extent, but how would this approval work? The approval system could work against us and only give us more to do just to keep these threads under control.
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Dimentio95
 
Name
Chris
ACNL Town
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11:48am
For what it's worth, some of these types of PTs already do exist. I know 707penguin is running a Current Events discussion PT, and I think Brielle2000 is running the LGBTQ+ and Supporters PT for example, and while I'm not in either of them at this time they sound like they're doing alright so far without anyone sitting in on the conversation.

But since this discussion is on giving them a possibly-major boost, maybe they will have to be closer examined. Personally, I think the current system will still be enough to continue to support these kinds of threads. The nature of those situations in PTs up to this point has mostly been report if you think someone is breaking a rule and you want it looked into or choose to just leave it, and I'm afraid it might seem unfair to a modmin to make them monitor a PT as that's an entirely new responsibility that will take up some of their time.

Perhaps one way to allow for it without being too obtrusive is to give the PTs the responsibility of trying to handle it using the reporting system and maturity, and if the thread owner PTs a modmin about something or if it seems that severe User Tickets are coming out of the thread it could be the first step in a "correction process" to bring in a modmin to sit in on the conversation? There could be further steps such as temporarily closing a thread for periods of time if things continue not to go down a positive path, and I feel like it would be less of a task on the modmins if they were only asked to check out threads that seem like they need attention rather than sitting in on all of them.
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GabeEB
 
Name
Gabe
ACNL Town
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5/9/2018 11:12pm
After reading through the options I've heard members mention so far, I believe that this is likely the best option moving forward. I've heard a fair amount of how it could be beneficial, but we'd also have to be very careful about how we handled it.

"Another potential issue is if these particular PT's do require more moderation, how can we ensure that we are aware of these topics so that we can pay closer attention to them? If the community makes many of these PT's, it could potentially become harder to catch all of them and keep an eye on them. Perhaps we could make a rule where these topics are only allowed when approved by modmins to avoid repeated topics and such to make things easier on us to an extent, but how would this approval work? The approval system could work against us and only give us more to do just to keep these threads under control."
This brings up a valid point, and one solution that has crossed my mind would make an amendment to 2.3. Sticky the official PTs and disallow creation of the same PT so that only one official PT for each controversial issue is around. The fewer "official" PTs that are created, the fewer amount of PTs would have to be actively modded and read. However, we would also have to clarify that that would only apply to individuals seeking to start their own PT meant for a large group of people and that smaller PTs between only a few members would be fine as it is now. The downside is that there would likely be issues regarding members that insist that their PT that they want to create is different enough from the official PT, an example being an official Stickied PT regarding Politics causing problems after members insist that there should be a separate PT for American Democrats and American Republicans. In those cases, the Mods would have to inspect each idea on a case-by-case basis, and we'd likely have repeat PTs.

One other thing to consider with only having one PT would be the ease of adding new members. While we can add/remove members ourselves(and if the thread were created by a Modmin, we solely would be allowed), the thread owner would also be able to add members. If there were active members who would be willing to add new members to the PT so that a Modmin was not constantly required to be online for the purpose of adding new members, that would be immensely helpful. Additionally, the owner of the PT would have to be somebody who would not close it unless we deemed the PT as unfit for "public" access. Perhaps, since there are currently threads as mentioned by Dimentio95, run by 707penguin and Brielle2000, who are both very active members from what I've noticed, it would be best to let those PTs become the official ones, since the creators seem to be doing a good job? While I can't say for the Current Events PT run by 707penguin, I have been added to the LGBTQ+ and Supporters thread headed up by Brielle2000, and he has done a good job recently of adding people to the PT as requested and preventing chaos from starting.

While I dislike the idea of giving a member a Modmin's position, perhaps it might be considerable to ask the owner of one of these PTs to be a member who would be okay with actively trying to prevent arguments or flaming/spamming? While they couldn't exactly be given Modmin privileges to control threads, perhaps ask them to attempt to help steer discussion away from dangerous routes if a Modmin is unavailable, and to immediately report a post as soon as a problem comes up? If the owner of the PT was quick to report the problem, then we'd hopefully be saved some of the effort of actively having to check every post as they happen. After becoming familiar with the user who owns the PT, we'd realize that if something from that user came up it would be best to check out the thread to see if any problems have arisen. In a way, the thread owner would sort of be like an alert for us to check out for any unacceptable behavior.
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Sonnic
 
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Callum
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I think keeping LGBT, religion, politics, etc to PTs does make sense. There is usually one person who comes along with some rather unpleasant comments sooner or later and having a PT helps defend against that. I don't think it should specifically be an LGBT ad sticky, but just a general sticky for PT communities to be made more accessible. If a modmin managed the ad sticky & had a list of the "official" PT groups it could prevent there being an unwieldy number of PTs for modmins to watch over.
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zura
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iolite
 
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Ana´s
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Thank you to all who've joined in with this discussion so far. Thank you for keeping it level-headed and on track. I hope to read more as more Members join in.
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Sonnic
 
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Callum
ACNL Town
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With regards to rule changes, there's already an advertising sticky for RPGs so surely there isn't much difference between that and allowing an ad sticky for "community" PTs.
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Dimentio95
 
Name
Chris
ACNL Town
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That part of the initiative would be relatively easy, but we do have to consider its effects on participation and friendliness in those threads. Imposing new rules on already-existing threads and starting a sticky are separate ideas to me, but considering the addition of a rule against requesting to be added just to bully and the ability for modmins to temporarily sit in on threads having issues seems like it could help reinforce the rules beyond the current reporting system without being overly obtrusive while being easier for modmins to assimilate with than forcing to monitor all of them.
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Hadger
 
Name
David
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I'm not sure if a rule amendment would be necessary. Bullying is already against the rules; if a member requests to be added to a private thread just to bully others, that member can be given a notification on the basis of violating 1.4 Personal Insults & Attacks (Flaming) and/or 1.5 Trolling & Generalized Insults. Instead, we could make it clear in the first post that members who request to be added to threads to bully others will be given notifications for violating these rules and risk being banned.

I think that the best course of action for this would be to trust members to report members who violate rules. Bullying can happen in any private thread, and people often report bullying. For example, I know someone who was in a buddy thread in which people suddenly started flaming others, so she and her friends reported the bully, and the bullying stopped. We did not need a moderator to be added to this thread to prevent bullying; the members were able to report the bully.

I think that members would report bullying. While members might not report other violations (such as use of profanity), if they feel that someone is bullying others, they will definitely report that person to stop the bullying. PTs such as the LGBT+ PT are created on the basis of giving people a safe place to discuss who they are; members of that PT will certainly do whatever they can to prevent anything that threatens the peace of the thread, and I don't think that they will hesitate to report bullying. While I'm not against giving moderators an easier way to monitor these threads, I don't think it's as necessary as people think it is.
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Dimentio95
 
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Chris
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A rule amendment isn't necessary, but I definitely think the deliberate action of disrupting a thread in that way ought to be added into the official description on the ACC rules. I'm partial to think marking that specific action as a Level 1 or 2 offense would help prevent it from happening, but it's certainly not necessary if we think it's best to just group it into the current rules.

I agree with you on it not being necessary to bring in heavy moderation. Doing a little bit to ensure that no threads use their increased size to go become a sea of removed posts can be done by having some sort of correction path, but it really doesn't seem necessary to intervene any further unless there is a concrete reason why the reporting system would fail if these PTs got a boost form sticky advertisement.
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yankees24cano
 
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Cano
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"While the reporting system is a good way for catching harassment, we have to take into account the potential that some threads might not contain users that report people for harassment. There is always the potential that someone could be attacked in a less direct manner, and that person who was attacked might not be compelled to say anything for a variety of personal reasons. Would these particular PT's require various modmins to keep watch over them to avoid this type of occurrence? If so, we would potentially have to look into finding additional modmins if we can't handle the additional attention to these PT's with ones we have."
It should be the responsibility of the person being harassed to report it.  If someone is harassed and chooses not to report it, they either don't view it as harassment or they don't care enough to report it.  If it is a big enough problem, they will report it.  I don't really see this as an issue.

"A rule amendment isn't necessary, but I definitely think the deliberate action of disrupting a thread in that way ought to be added into the official description on the ACC rules. I'm partial to think marking that specific action as a Level 1 or 2 offense would help prevent it from happening, but it's certainly not necessary if we think it's best to just group it into the current rules."
I think we should make it a level 3 offense.  With some of the PT's that would likely start (most notably a depression PT), there are potential serious consequences of someone coming in and causing problems.  We want to send a strong and clear message that this is not okay and people who do it won't last long.

I also think that we should make a separate 5 point offense for starting a controversial topic PT in order to troll.  It's one thing to go into an existing group and troll, but it is significantly worse to draw people in just to cause problems.

"This brings up a valid point, and one solution that has crossed my mind would make an amendment to 2.3. Sticky the official PTs and disallow creation of the same PT so that only one official PT for each controversial issue is around. The fewer "official" PTs that are created, the fewer amount of PTs would have to be actively modded and read. However, we would also have to clarify that that would only apply to individuals seeking to start their own PT meant for a large group of people and that smaller PTs between only a few members would be fine as it is now. The downside is that there would likely be issues regarding members that insist that their PT that they want to create is different enough from the official PT, an example being an official Stickied PT regarding Politics causing problems after members insist that there should be a separate PT for American Democrats and American Republicans. In those cases, the Mods would have to inspect each idea on a case-by-case basis, and we'd likely have repeat PTs. "
I don't think we need to make it this controlled.  There are a limited number of users on ACC, and within that, only a small percentage of them will cause issues in these types of PT's.  Users who cause problems will be permanently banned, and eventually, we will reach a point where the only times we have issues are from new members, which won't be that frequent.

On top of that, we won't need a mod to keep up on these.  There is no reason why we can't have these work like existing PT's, where mods only come in when issues come up.  Also, if we have 1 official PT for each topic, then we just have more posts in the same PT, rather than fewer posts in multiple PT's.  I don't think the difference in the total number of posts will be significant.




I think we all agree on this, but the sticky should be for all controversial topics (assuming that they otherwise fall within the rules).  Limiting it to LGBT ones only helps a small percentage of the users and excludes a whole bunch of people who have other issues that they want to discuss.  Considering that inclusion is one of the main focuses of the LGBT movement, it would be silly to exclude people with other issues.
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emma_lee
 
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Emily
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I agree with everything yankees24cano said, except I will elaborate on this:
"It should be the responsibility of the person being harassed to report it.  If someone is harassed and chooses not to report it, they either don't view it as harassment or they don't care enough to report it.  If it is a big enough problem, they will report it.  I don't really see this as an issue."
If someone is being harassed and does not report it, they may also not be wanting to cause problems. This is similar to real life how bullying victims remain quiet although they are being tormented, because they don't want to draw attention or be seen as being a tattletale.

However, I do agree that it should be a serious violation if one plans to be in a controversial PT to cause problems, and even moreso for someone who is setting up a PT like this specifically to troll.

I do agree that the advertising sticky should include other controversial topics as well, such as anxiety or depression. I have said before in Voice Your Opinion, I believe, that I have had a member PT me specifically to ask for advice with anxiety. It helped me, too, being able to help this member and I as well as others, I am certain, would benefit from a discussion like that with the sticky making it visible to those who do not know anyone to turn to. This would be a way to say that they are not alone. That is explicitly what this member told me when PTing me, that they felt very alone and that they had nobody to turn to. I think that would be a great community to have, much like the LGBTQAP+ PT. It brings a real sense of community.

I'm sorry if that was off topic, but I do agree that it should not just be for LGBTQAP+ threads. I feel like this sticky is possibly meant to be an umbrella sticky for other controversial topics, but am not really sure. It would be great if it would apply to other topics as well.
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Isaac30001
 
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Isaac
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"If someone is being harassed and does not report it, they may also not be wanting to cause problems. This is similar to real life how bullying victims remain quiet although they are being tormented, because they don't want to draw attention or be seen as being a tattletale.
"
I'd say that situation is a lot more rare on the internet than it is in real life. Most people who get insulted are complete strangers to the person who insulted them, so it's not like they're betraying the person by reporting them. If it is their friend who is doing it to them, they should just stop being their friend. If they for whatever reason don't feel like they can stop being their friend, well, that's on them. As for the drawing attention, it's a situation that's kept private. It's not like all notifications are publicly posted for all to see.
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emma_lee
 
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"If it is their friend who is doing it to them, they should just stop being their friend. If they for whatever reason don't feel like they can stop being their friend, well, that's on them."
I do actually know of a person on here who is friends with someone that somewhat bullies them.

I didn't mean that the notifications are public, but when a notification is given, the post shows that the content has been removed, and everyone can see when content has been removed. There are people who feel threatened by posts directed at them, but don't report them. I don't know why, but there are.
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Dimentio95
 
Name
Chris
ACNL Town
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11:48am
I think it's important to keep in mind as well that anyone can report any post that seems like it's breaking a rule. It doesn't really seem fitting of the modmin role, in my opinion, to have to be the super-hero of sorts that checks on every PT to make sure that people aren't leaving bad posts unreported. On the public boards it makes sense to moderate threads actively and before a ticket comes in for questionable content, but PTs are supposed to be a little more on the private side. Encouraging the reporting of questionable material or forever holding one's peace as people do in PTs right now seems a lot more fitting (and a lot less complicated) for a private thread to me than to make certain private threads less private and explain what's changing there as well figuring out who is being given the extra work.
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emma_lee
 
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Emily
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"I think it's important to keep in mind as well that anyone can report any post that seems like it's breaking a rule."
Exactly.

"Encouraging the reporting of questionable material or forever holding one's peace as people do in PTs right now seems a lot more fitting (and a lot less complicated) for a private thread to me than to make certain private threads less private and explain what's changing there as well figuring out who is being given the extra work."
This is what I meant. I would definitely go for that rather than have someone babysitting, that is not what I meant. I think just encouraging that any sort of negative behavior be reported is a good idea.
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GoatsInnuendo
 
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Thom
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As a direct response to the OP, I think it's a great idea - even if not restricted to LGBT+ PT advertising.

I made what I think was the sites first LGBT+ PT a few years ago, or at least one of the first p. decently sized ones. It got to a good size but it'd have been useful to have somewhere more to advertise it than my profile. On top of this, because I haven't been on this site in some time, I have no idea if a new one exists and/or where to look for one I can join
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GabeEB
 
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Gabe
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5/9/2018 11:12pm
If you'd like to be added to the current one, you'd need to hit up Brielle2000. He created the current thread, and I'm sure he'd be happy to add you in there.

I still hold that this is the best solution, since it can theoretically apply not just to LGBT issues, but things such as political discussions as well.
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Site Suggestions Board » Topic: Community Exercise: Allow LGBTQA advertising Sticky

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