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» Site Suggestions Board
Topic: Community Exercise: Allow LGBTQA threads on public boards

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iolite
 
Name
Ana´s
ACNL Town
Last Active
3/26 2:21pm
As a result of this thread, the Modmins would like to invite the Community to do our job.

Members will take on the role of Modmins, and the Modmins will sometimes take on the role of Members and sometimes be themselves.

For the purpose of this thread your job will be to discuss whether LGBTQA discussion threads should be allowed on the public boards on ACC. All of your discussions should take place here so that everyone can see the reasoning behind your proposals.

Here are the rules and guidelines:

• Members should use this thread as a public version of a Modmin discussion thread.

• Modmins, when taking on the role of Members, will use this thread as the Voice Your Opinion thread.

• Members should work on this exercise without the help of any non-Modmin Staff.

• All of your discussions should take place here so that everyone can see the reasoning behind your proposals.

• Without flaming, trolling, emotion, swearing, or any other negative action or reaction, Members should discuss the pros and cons of allowing LGBTQA discussion threads on the public boards.

• Although you should state your own opinions, you must also handle and consider opposing views that others may hold - even if you don't personally like or agree with their thoughts.

• Any posts made by Members which are not becoming of a Modmin, and which break Site Rules such as flaming and trolling, will be deleted.

• When you finally agree on a compromise, or win others over to your point of view, you will need to examine all the Site Rules and decide which ones need to be amended in order to allow the agreed changes.

• Don't forget to examine the possible consequences of amending those rules.

• Also, do you need new Site Rules? If yes, please write them and ensure they come with at least two types of violations and levels.

• When all the appropriate Site Rules are complete, you now have to work on the wording of a Site Announcement and Board Rules.

Modmins will monitor this thread and offer genuine help, as Modmins, only at certain stages. At other times, Modmins acting as Members, may offer encouragement or just disrupt the thread with negative comments - some of which will be direct quotes that Members have used on the VYO thread. Occasionally, this thread may be Admin-Locked for short periods, or temporarily removed from view, to represent the times that Modmin attention is elsewhere, e.g. working a job all day, looking after children, running a home, doing chores, going to College or simply working on other things on ACC.


What's the point of this? Well, we're giving you all an insight into what it takes to change rules, guidelines and policies, and we are also asking you to stay calm while in the line of fire. If you can see what it is like for Modmins, and what it takes to bring several viewpoints together, then maybe the future of all discussions will be much improved.  

One more thing, Modmins will write in italics when they are speaking as a Member, and will write in default text when being themselves.

If you are up for this challenge, get stuck in and kick off this discussion.

Good Luck.
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Dimentio95
 
Name
Chris
ACNL Town
Last Active
11:48am
I'm not sure this idea is the right fit for ACC at this time. Threads relating to orientation just don't seem like they have a place on public boards, especially since the main focus of this website is on a video game series. I understand that there is a community aspect to LGBTQA beyond orientation and it's important that members of that community don't feel like it's being oppressed by the modmin team, but we also have to acknowledge that Animal Crossing is marketed to fans in many countries and of many lifestyles.

For those two reasons, I think promoting PTs for these kinds of topics is a better solution because it allows users who are interested in topics that could be found controversial to be added to those discussions while keeping the public boards open to topics that everyone can feel comfortable talking about. We can certainly do more to make that community feel more accepted here (for example helping their discussion PTs gain more attention), and that seems like a solution that will be more reasonable for promoting happiness on both sides of the matter to me.
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wheatsquares33
 
Name
Wheat
ACNL Town
Last Active
1/27 5:11pm
Even though I'm the creator of this original thread, I don't think that a public LGBT+ thread is necessary. To paraphrase an extremely long post I left in the PT: the basis of the LGBT+ community is what you like in the sack. I think the issue has been extremely romanticized, with focus on "love has no bounds" and "equality" or whatever, but it's not all about that. For example, I could fall in love with a girl's personality easily, but there's a reason I'm gay. A reason that's definitely not family-friendly and doesn't need to be discussed on public forums. Especially on an family-friendly Animal Crossing forum. A PT's just better.

Also, discussion on a public forum based on LGBT+ is extremely limited. What is there to talk about that's family friendly?
- Crush stories/romance (straight thread for this already; got locked)
- Coming out of the closet advice (a mod already shot this down)
- How to find a significant other, how to tell someone I love him/her, relationship advice, etc. (could easily go the wrong way; not fit for a public board).

In the end, what else is there to talk about? I mean, even the PT has been dormant ever since everyone's introduced themselves. There just doesn't need to be a public thread.

In my opinion, the best way to resolve this issue is with a PT advertising sticky. Not especially for the LGBT+ PT, but just for mass PTs in general.

TL;DR version: If the goal is to keep ACC family-friendly, keep LGBT+ stuff in a PT and advertise it in a sticky. The end.
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Sonnic
 
Name
Callum
ACNL Town
Last Active
12:07pm
As long as romance/politics discussion isn't allowed, I don't think there's much purpose to allowing LGBT threads on public boards. People are allowed to mention that they're gay/lesbian/etc which I think is about all we need at this point in time. Stuff like supporting people coming to terms with their identity are probably better served by PTs where there's no danger of being attacked by abusive members. While the staff do try and remove offensive posts, they can be left there for a long time & seeing these posts could be hurtful to someone trying to gain confidence to accept who they are.
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zura
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lemonlimelipstick
 
Last Active
3/29 12:17am
"At other times, Modmins acting as Members, may offer encouragement or just disrupt the thread with negative comments - some of which will be direct quotes that Members have used on the VYO thread."
This seems incredibly passive-aggressive. 'Negative' comments are not inherently disruptive, nor should they automatically be dismissed because they weren't expressed in a manner deemed friendly or polite enough. If you're going to try to shame people for what they've said, I hope you're going to name them as well. (And if those comments are truly disruptive and add nothing to the conversation, will another mod step in to remove them, as would happen to a normal member?)
"To paraphrase an extremely long post I left in the PT: the basis of the LGBT+ community is what you like in the sack"
To be fair, being trans has to do with your gender and not really your attraction to other people. Talking about transitioning probably isn't the best, especially if people are looking for medical advice (even more so if they're trying to self-medicate). I guess you could talk about your gender expression, though idk if that qualifies as family friendly.
"As long as romance/politics discussion isn't allowed, I don't think there's much purpose to allowing LGBT threads on public boards."
I agree with this. Aside from the romantic aspect of people's orientations, a lot of the topics you could talk about are often politicized and will probably be considered as such, and thus against the rules. Being trans is probably even more controversial to some people, so trans people discussing their daily lives could bring out some views ACC rules would like you to keep to yourself. Moderating would have to be pretty strict on those threads if they're going to be allowed, and ACC would need to clarify its view on offensive content if it's going to allow both sides to express their views. A lot of people are probably going to be offended if someone tells them their identity or core part of their personality doesn't really exist, is something to be ashamed of, or needs to be fixed, etc., and other people are going to be offended if you restrict their ability to tell those people that.
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iolite
 
Name
Ana´s
ACNL Town
Last Active
3/26 2:21pm
"This seems incredibly passive-aggressive. 'Negative' comments are not inherently disruptive, nor should they automatically be dismissed because they weren't expressed in a manner deemed friendly or polite enough. If you're going to try to shame people for what they've said, I hope you're going to name them as well. (And if those comments are truly disruptive and add nothing to the conversation, will another mod step in to remove them, as would happen to a normal member?)"
lemonlimelipstick - Thank you for your comment. You are correct that negative comments aren't necessarily disruptive, however, we will be using ones that are - but only if the original comments didn't receive notifications.

Again you are correct that negative comments (depending on how they are negative) shouldn't automatically be dismissed. Of the discussions that descend into chaos, it usually is the case that comments contrary to the majority are seen as attacking even when they are not presented as such. Not everyone is allowing others to express an opinion that is different to their own. Sometimes opposite opinions are indeed quite aggressive, but this doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't a point made in the text.

Most Members are perfectly capable of looking past emotion and seeing the points made in a post, but not everyone practices it. Further, it works against Members when a thread becomes argumentative precisely because it tends to go off-topic. This makes it difficult for others to sift through some of the posts in a suggestion thread, which in turn can mean less support for an idea that was probably reasonable and could have been implemented.

For example, the thread I linked to in the first post had a suggestion in it which was a good compromise worthy of discussing and bringing to the attention of the Staff. However, an argument ensued and the thread was locked by the thread owner. The strong feelings on both sides of the argument weren't resolved, and sooner or later another thread like that would have appeared and the arguments would likely have started again. This tends to be the pattern that Modmins have seen, and therefore we are wishing to try something to break that pattern.
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Hadger
 
Name
David
ACNL Town
Last Active
4:30am
To add to what lemonlimelipstick said, quoting actual comments by members is a bad idea. It would definitely be considered a violation of the Trolling and Generalized Insults if someone who isn't a modmin did that. I don't have an issue with moderators' posting negative comments, but quoting members is needlessly rude and antagonistic.

There's nothing wrong with pointing out when people are being rude, but directly quoting them and mocking them on a thread like this when you're in a position of authority on this website? That's just wrong, and you're all mature enough to know why it's wrong.

Anyway, while I don't have an issue with the discussion of general topics related to romance (including LGBT+ topics) and most political topics (including the legalization of same-gender marriage) on the public boards, it doesn't seem like the discussion of those topics is going to be allowed any time soon. The creation of an advertising PT would be a good way to give people a way to know about the LGBT+ PT so that they can discuss LGBT+-related topics. It would be a good temporary compromise.
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SeaLion
 
Name
Sonic
ACGC Town
Last Active
3/30 11:14pm
If I may step in, in moderator mode, we chose to allow actual quotes in order to prove that such things were said to us as moderators. The idea is to show you all exactly what we have seen directed towards us, but it would be very likely that we would be accused of over-dramatizing the comments; making the negative comments look worse than what they really were. In order to avoid this, we determined that posting actual quotes directed towards us would be allowed for the purpose of this exercise.

Our intention is not to mock the people who posted these comments; our intention is to have you look at what was actually said to us and to look at it through our eyes. We want you to see what we have seen so that we can all come to a better understanding of one another.
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Hadger
 
Name
David
ACNL Town
Last Active
4:30am
If someone accuses you guys of over-dramatizing, fine, PT that person with some actual quotes. But just posting quotes from members on the public boards like that is mockery. As I've said, it's the type of behavior that would get a member a notification. Directly quoting members with the intention to say, "Hey, this guy's a jerk!" is unacceptable.
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yankees24cano
 
Name
Cano
ACNL Town
Last Active
9:48am
I agree that if anyone else did that, they would get a notification.  Even if you don't intend to mock people, it will come off that way.
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kittokitty
 
Name
Neptune
ACNL Town
Last Active
11/18/2018 10:26am
Threads that are made just about LBGTQA+ I don't think should be allowed. In my opinion it's a bit pointless really - it's just a (filter awkwardness) orientation or gender identity, it doesn't make you different, and it doesn't make you special either.

That being said, threads for LGBTQA+ ships should be allowed because they're no different from heterosexual ships, LGBTQA+ characters should be allowed in creative writing, etc.

As for "how to come out" threads, I think that people asking how should be allowed, but not specific threads about it. Also, if someone's asking for advice about a crush or whatever, it should be fine for it to be an LGBTQ+ crush (if advice about crushes is even allowed )

I don't think that those who think that LGBTQA+ is a bad thing or "EW I DON'T WANT MY CHILDREN EXPOSED TO THAT PERVERSE LIFESTYLE!" should even be considered as their point of view is outdated and prejudiced (not to mention that it's bullying in most cases).

I would also like to point out that the internet itself is not "family friendly"!. I agree with rules making the site suitable for children are necessary, but the internet is by no means a safe place for a child and parents should realise that.
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Isaac30001
 
Name
Isaac
ACCF Town
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12/30/2018 9:11pm
"I don't think that those who think that LGBTQA+ is a bad thing or "EW I DON'T WANT MY CHILDREN EXPOSED TO THAT PERVERSE LIFESTYLE!" should even be considered as their point of view is outdated and prejudiced (not to mention that it's bullying in most cases).
"

Disagreeing with someone's way of life and hating the person are two different things. I agree, gay people shouldn't be treated with less respect than straight people, but if someone disagrees with homosexuality, that doesn't automatically make them a bully. Also, if someone doesn't want their child exposed to such things, they have as much a right to voice their opinion on the matter as anyone. Yes, people who outright bully gay people shouldn't be considered, but someone who simply doesn't agree with it should still be listened to IMO.
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Sonnic
 
Name
Callum
ACNL Town
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12:07pm
Would you be okay with someone saying they didn't want their children exposed to people of other races?
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zura
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GabeEB
 
Name
Gabe
ACNL Town
Last Active
5/9/2018 11:12pm
While I'm not necessarily agreeing with the people that Isaac30001 has mentioned, I don't think that comparing it to racism is truly equal, Sonnic. Racism has been outlawed in many places for a few decades, whereas public LGBTQ+ matters are fairly recent. I mean, the US just nationally legalized homosexual marriage this year. While I don't think that they are different in manners of respecting people, the reality is that even immediately following the outlawing of racism in the 60's, it still took quite a few years to stop racism as much as they have.
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Isaac30001
 
Name
Isaac
ACCF Town
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12/30/2018 9:11pm
"Would you be okay with someone saying they didn't want their children exposed to people of other races? "

This is just my beliefs, and if you disagree then I won't stop you, but I personally don't believe that homosexuality is something you're born with, while race obviously is. No gay gene has been found. I'm not trying to cause arguments here, I'm just saying that if someone disagrees with homosexuality but still respects gay people, their opinion should be heard and considered.
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Amrasje
 
Name
Michael
ACNL Town
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11:02am
"I personally don't believe that homosexuality is something you're born with, while race obviously is."
Not sure whether I should be weighing in on the discussion, but scientists have discovered that male homosexuality has a strong genetic component approximately one year ago.
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Isaac30001
 
Name
Isaac
ACCF Town
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12/30/2018 9:11pm
"Not sure whether I should be weighing in on the discussion, but scientists have discovered that male homosexuality has a strong genetic component approximately one year ago. "

Mind telling me what this gene is called?
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Amrasje
 
Name
Michael
ACNL Town
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11:02am
It is a twist in chromosome 8, called "8q12".
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lemonlimelipstick
 
Last Active
3/29 12:17am
Just because you say you don't hate someone and you think they shouldn't be bullied does not mean you respect them. You are literally disagreeing with a part of somebody's identity and telling them they should not be allowed to talk about it. That doesn't sound respectful to me, just barely tolerant, if you could even call it that.
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GabeEB
 
Name
Gabe
ACNL Town
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5/9/2018 11:12pm
To be fair, it's not like he's just randomly saying it shouldn't be allowed because, as it is, most things related to any sort of romance or interest-in-people(since the word I would use is blocked) have been disallowed for a long time. One couldn't make a thread about having preferences in x trait(hair color, size, personality, etc.), so why should there be threads allowed regarding LGBT relationships in any form? Both have to do with romantic orientation, so what's the difference?
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lemonlimelipstick
 
Last Active
3/29 12:17am
No offense, but how was that relevant? There's a difference in saying "we shouldn't make threads about preferring blond hair because it's against the rules" versus "people who don't like blond hair (but respect blond people) should get to say whether or not threads about liking blond hair are allowed. I don't want my children exposed to blonde hair preferences." If romance WAS allowed, do you think these people who disagree with homosexuality are going to be okay with these threads?
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GabeEB
 
Name
Gabe
ACNL Town
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5/9/2018 11:12pm
"You are literally disagreeing with a part of somebody's identity and telling them they should not be allowed to talk about it."
I was saying that being able to talk about LGBT matters is similar to being able to talk about romantic preferences in general, and so people could disapprove of allowing LGBT matters when other romantic preference threads are allowed. I was pointing out that just because Isaac doesn't approve of LGBT threads being on public boards(even when combined with the fact that he didn't recognize LGBTQ+ as something you're born with), means that he doesn't respect LGBTQ+ people. It just means he doubts some of their claims. I happen to be a Christian and don't agree with the logic that people of other religions use, nor would I want them to have their own boards, but does that mean that I don't respect people of other religions? By no means!

Also, just occurred to me, but on the topic of races, like Sonnic was talking about, you can't even have a thread talking about what race you are? So that's not necessarily supportive of LGBT threads. It makes an argument against the discrimination, yes, but does not necessarily help the cause that's being put forth here.
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Sonnic
 
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Callum
ACNL Town
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12:07pm
"his is just my beliefs, and if you disagree then I won't stop you, but I personally don't believe that homosexuality is something you're born with, while race obviously is. No gay gene has been found. I'm not trying to cause arguments here, I'm just saying that if someone disagrees with homosexuality but still respects gay people, their opinion should be heard and considered."
Okay then, would you be okay with someone saying they didn't want their children to see interracial relationships because they think they're obscene? Since there's no interracial relationships gene.
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zura
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Isaac30001
 
Name
Isaac
ACCF Town
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12/30/2018 9:11pm
"Just because you say you don't hate someone and you think they shouldn't be bullied does not mean you respect them. You are literally disagreeing with a part of somebody's identity and telling them they should not be allowed to talk about it. That doesn't sound respectful to me, just barely tolerant, if you could even call it that. "

They can talk about it all they want if it's not on ACC. Threads about straight relationships aren't allowed, so why should threads about gay relationships be allowed?

I disagree with homosexuality. That doesn't mean I hate gay people. Where was it stated that people have to agree with everything everyone else does, otherwise they're a bully?


Just letting everyone know, I'm not gonna continue the debate about whether homosexuality is gene based or not on a public thread, as it's not really what this topic was made to discuss. PT me if you want, but I'm not gonna seek out any debates because I find them pretty tedious.
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Isaac30001
 
Name
Isaac
ACCF Town
Last Active
12/30/2018 9:11pm
"Okay then, would you be okay with someone saying they didn't want their children to see interracial relationships because they think they're obscene? Since there's no interracial relationships gene. "

No I wouldn't, but homosexuality and interracial relationships are two different things. But this will start turning into a religious debate if I say more, and I don't feel like getting a notification for going off topic.
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Site Suggestions Board » Topic: Community Exercise: Allow LGBTQA threads on public boards

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