In my opinion, ACC is too strict when it comes to posting in other languages. Languages such as French, German and Spanish are taught in many schools meaning that a lot of people have a base idea of what people are talking about, and if they don't, Google Translate can usually give them an idea of what they're saying. For example, if I was to post 'Thank you' in French, most people would know what it meant or could use Google Translate to get an idea of what is being said.

I agree! Many people know a few words in other languages, from the language they were taught at school. I know that you shouldn't be able top post large paragraphs in other languages but the odd word, like please or thank you in another language without a translation. Heck, in Google chrome, you can type "please from English to French" and it'll give you a translation. It's not difficult and it makes some conversation more fun and interesting. If you ban other languages, you'd be as well banning inside jokes because only certain people understand those as well.

It's been my experience, though, that Google translate isn't fully accurate.  For example, I've seen fb friends from other countries post in foreign languages.  When I do a Google translate, the post is quite awkward to read through and, at times, not all of it is translatable. With that said... didn't ACC recently allow foreign language bts now?  Just not in the open forums?  I might be remembering that wrong.  I don't have a problem with people having foreign language group bts or private pts either.  But when in the public forum, if they do switch to allowing it there as well, I'd think it would be best if the foreign posts also included the translation already.  That way there is absolutely no miscommunication or missed translation.

^While it is true that Google Translate isn't 100% and can be awkward in translating, there shouldn't be a problem with the simple "thank you" or "please" or something similar. Small phrases tend not to have bad translations. While I'm somewhat neutral on the idea since I don't use other languages anyway, I still lean towards allowing small phrases.

^^I remember a while back there was a German PT and when one of the participants was modded he revealed that every post had to have an English translation.

^^^ If the current rules are correct, they don't state whether they can be used in PTs

"^^^ If the current rules are correct, they don't state whether they can be used in PTs "

I'd say that it is worth asking about [again] then.  I think that simple phrases are probably already used.  I've been known to use mix simple phrases.  Like merci bo coo (spelling as I truly don't know the real spelling), merci buttercups, gracias, et al.  I don't think those simple phrases can get one into any trouble unless that's all their posting (because, on the public forums, I'd presume that could be considered bumping or spamming).  But full on foreign language texts on the public forums is another "animal" altogether.

PS:  As I'm not a moderator or staff I recommend you investigate the current rules before posting in either public or private.  And since we know that this thread is already reviewed by the staff I'm sure that, if asked, they'd be happy to enlighten us.

I'd presume, GabeEB, that it would depend on the type of phrase, frequency, and what else surrounds the simple phrase.  But if currently it isn't specified or permitted then I'd shy away from and send a general inquiry.

spyro879103, always always always consider the current rules to be correct.  If it isn't stated that foreign language can be used in a pt, you could always send an inquiry to clarify or just shy away from until such time as the rules clearly state that you can.

Hello everyone, please allow me to respond to the most recent discussion taking place on this thread. I'd like to refer to rule 1.15 Posting in Non-English Languages:

"...posting solely in other languages is not allowed. Occasional words or short phrases in another language are allowed but only if a translation is included in the same post."

I would say that this is quite clear. ACC is a website where English is the language people need to use. That doesn't mean you cannot post in a different language, only that you'd need to provide an English translation if you do. While people might find this annoying, it is of great value for both the Modmin Staff as well as the community. The time the Modmins, just like all of the other ACC Staff, dedicate to the website is spare time in between work, chores, family, etc. and therefore quite valuable. When something which was posted in a different language got reported for, for example, Offensive Language, the last thing we'd want to do is spend time using a (sometimes very unreliable) website like Google Translate to try and figure out whether the reported content is indeed in violation of the Site Rules. I'd like to mention that rule 1.15 Posting in Non-English Languages applies to both public and private threads.

While it is true that people learn different languages at school, this is not the case for everyone. To just give one example, in Belgium, Education is not a national, but rather a regional matter. I was fortunate enough to live and go to school in a region where it was compulsory by law to learn Dutch, French, English and a bit of German. However, people from the more southern part of the country only have to learn French. The option to learn other languages is there, but as it is not compulsory in that region, hardly anyone bothers because many children and young teenagers tend to think "Why should I? They speak French where I live." Situations can be very different from country to country or even from region to region. Here in the UK, most people don't speak any languages other than English because they either forgot what they were taught at school, or when given the choice to drop the language subjects, they were too keen to not study them.

You can also think of this rule as something which doesn't "handicap" the community, but instead helps it. If people who post in a different language provide an English translation in the same post, this may help others on ACC to pick up on and learn different languages. Why not turn the negative into a positive? If you are only posting the words "Thank you" in a different language, isn't it only a small effort which doesn't take long at all to provide the translation?

With something like "thank you" I feel like, I'm not entirely sure how to phrase this, using other languages has sort of become a cultural trend. Like I'll see people in everyday life saying "merci"/"gracias"/"danke" without really thinking twice about it, even if they don't actually know the languages in question.

"using other languages has sort of become a cultural trend. Like I'll see people in everyday life saying "merci"/"gracias"/"danke" without really thinking twice about it, even if they don't actually know the languages in question. "

I always say 'Merci' to my friends because it's what we like to say, it's what we are comfortable saying in front of each other, so it frustrates me that I can't even use a simple word like that on a website that I adore.

I think that other simple phrases like Thank you should be allowed, because it's honestly not that hard to bring up a tab on Google Translate, and even if Google doesn't give an 100% accurate translation, you vaguely know what they're saying.

I'm not saying that the rules should be changed that block paragraphs should be allowed to be in a different language, just that basic words. Usually, people know the basic words, for example, I study french at school, and I know how to say thanks in German, Spanish, and of couse French. i've never been exposed to any of those languages in the oast (like i haven't been to germany or spain. Or france for that matter ) it's just generally known by people

While I appreciate the feedback and understand what all of you are saying, there's more to it. If we were to allow a number of words and short phrases to be posted without an English translation, where do we draw the line? How do we decide what goes and what doesn't? And how do we decide for other members "what they'll probably understand"? In my personal opinion, it wouldn't be fair to make an assumption like that. Personal situations and backgrounds are quite often just too diverse. There are members on this website who are as young as 7 and 8 years old, who speak English and English only. Will they really have been exposed to words and phrases from different languages enough to understand them when they get posted on this website? Something to keep in mind as well, is that many members of this website are non-native English speakers from countries outside of the UK/USA. They may not have been exposed to languages other than their mother tongue and English at all. To be mindful of all members rather than a group of members, I feel that the rule is best off staying the way it currently is.

Thank you, Amrasje, for posting that rule and updating us on the specifics.  I think that allowing it while there is the English translation is a nice accommodation.  I like how you also said that, by providing the translation in the actual post itself, is a nice way to educate others about the language.  A secondary language is not always easy for everyone.  Some of us struggle greatly with it while others can use it like their native tongue.  I commend those that can switch back and forth so readily.  Truly, I applaud them for it.  I'm oh so not one of them.  The most about any one language I can recite is from basic Spanish learned back in NJ in the 1980s.  And I hear tell that, today, not even that is accurate anymore.  So having the opportunity to post in foreign languages so long as the translation follows suit in the same post... awesome sauce.

Thanks for chiming in and refreshing us on that rule.

I do!pn't feel that people should get a notification for saying a word in a different language. And what about if it's a thread where it's just the users buddies who all understand the language?

And I'd like to reiterate my point about inside jokes. People don't understand them, but they're still allowed. I feel that a simple phrase in a other language is nothing more or less worse.

And witht he people who don't know anything apart from their mother tongue and english, again, google translate. I tried translating "merci beaucoup (thank you very much" from french to english and it translated to thank you a lot. Close enough for a surface meaning

I apologise for any typos, I'm on mobile ATM

I think the issue with the rule is that languages exist together in the same places.  I've spent 4 years learning German.  My teacher learned all of her German about 25 years ago.  We've had multiple German people come over and notice what we are saying and make comments about how the word isn't commonly used, they usually just say the English word.  The same applies in English to a lesser extent.

Looking at dictionary.com's english dictionary, the words "danke", "gracias", and "merci" (thanks in German, Spanish, and French") are all included.  I'd say that if a word is in an English dictionary, it should be okay to post (assuming it doesn't violate any other rules).

As to the people who have mentioned and referred to having PTs in other languages if it's all people who know the language, I think the main problem with not having a translation would be that a mod would then have to translate all the text to make sure that all of the text follows rules and isn't offensive/inappropriate/etc. and that would be a lot of work for something that may not even need it. Really, using another language would just be a big issue for mods to deal with when it's questionable how important using that language even is. I understand doing something like that and letting it go if somebody's English is poor or a similar case or they don't know how to say something in English and doesn't know a good translation, and I don't see a problem with something like that, but when you understand English and can translate perfectly well, there's no reason not to in my honest opinion.

Additionally, random little question since it's sort of on topic, how many languages does the modmin team understand? Like how many languages does at least one person speak? I know at least one person understands Bulgarian.

Mods only go into PTs when posts have been reported (or if the thread's hit 1000 posts or they're reviewing staff candidates or stuff like that, but that's not really relevant), so it's not like there'd have to be a mod on hand reviewing every single post.

Oh duh, true. I guess it's not absolutely a big problem then in that sense. My former question still stands though.

I just want to add that there are many non-English words that have been adapted into English speaking language and cultures and are widely known, understood and used by large cross sections of people.  So if you posted "gracias", "merci", "sayonara", "amigo" without a translation, I don't think you need to worry that you'd receive a UL notification for it.  These non-English words are common enough where most native and some non-native English speakers will understand them when used in an English phrase.  Some may often use them in their everyday communication anyway.    

Where things can get hazy is when you start using not so common words and phrases.  In those cases, we ask that you provide an English translation.  Even if you think it is a very basic phrase or word, some may not understand or know the word.  For example, the word "bupkis" is a word that is sort of common use in certain English-speaking countries or regions of a country.  It's a Yiddish word that has come to mean "nothing" or "nothing at all".  You might find its usage more so in regions where you'd find a higher percentage of people of Jewish heritage.  So while me being from the northeastern part of the US, which traditionally has had large populations of people of Jewish heritage, means I am familiar with the word, its meaning and how to use it in an English phrase context, for others it may not come as naturally to understand or know its meaning.  Does that make sense?  While one could easily get the meaning of "bupkis" via context in this popularized phrase, "You know bupkis, Jon Snow", I would probably include the translation to be on the safe side: "You know bupkis (nothing), Jon Snow" because I an uncertain it is as popular or widely known outside of the region in which I live.  

Overall, the message to take home is that ACC is an English language site. It is moderated by mostly native English speakers.  So in order to do our duties as Moderators and Admins, we have to understand what we are reading and reviewing to make the proper judgement calls when something comes to our attention.  Don't fret about really common words and phrases that have been adapted into common English language usage across a wide spectrum of countries, regions etc.  For more regionalized non-English words and phases, please provide a translation to be sure it is understood by all.  And of course for any complex or more advance types of non-English words and phrases, provide a translation.  It allows everyone to comprehend what you're trying to say.

*content removed*

-Staff Post (6/25/2015 1:16:17 PM)
This post violated the following rule:
1.16 Posting Account Status and Personal Information

I was talking about simple phrases like the ones you mentioned. Perhaps a slight clarification when it comes to words like that in the sure would be appreciated

Certainly the rule could use some clarification in this regard, so we'll take it under advisement.

Also, remember if you have a question about the validity of any violation you may have received, you can always post a message in the UL notification you received to contact the Modmins about it.

In my opinion, there shouldn't be a "Backseat Moderating" rule. People should be rewarded for trying to make sure that rules are being followed, not punished.

I understand that the moderators feel that it is their job to tell a user to follow the rules, but a moderator might not see the post/thread that was breaking the site rules, and someone who did see it wants to make sure the person follows the rules. Why wait for a moderator to get on? The topic may escalate, and more and more people will be breaking the rules since the other person only reported the original post without telling the person not to break the rules. It could take a while for the moderator to see the reported post and lock the thread.

All this could happen if a moderator is offline, or a person could just step in and tell the person what they did, why the rule exists, and report the user. The person would realize that they broke a rule and they would lock the thread. By doing this, the person would be stopping the topic from escalating before a moderator arrives.

There is also the argument that simply giving a notification is enough, as the rule says, "If you see a rule violation, you should report it to the staff anonymously [...]. The staff will honor your privacy in any report, and we expect you to guard yours as well." However, the topic could escalate if the person does not step in and tell the person to stop breaking the rules. Then several people would reply and would be breaking the rules other than just the original poster. It would be much more complicated and there would be much more trouble than if a person came in and told them to stop because a moderator was offline or didn't see the thread.

I believe that the only situations in which the Backseat Moderating rule should apply is if someone creates a thread talking about how much they hate people that break a certain rule, as this would be rude and unnecessary, or if somebody lectures someone for breaking a rule even after the person received a notification and apologized for what they had done -- but situations like those would most likely fall under rule 1.5: Trolling & Generalized Insults. Other than that, simply telling someone to follow the rules to stop a situation from escalating should be allowed and even encouraged.

I agree Carri, but I also get why the rule's in place. It kinda makes the problem worse if someone who has the same member status as them tells them to stop, it kinda seems like they think they're better than the other person. I think it should be a rule, but no notification should be issued for people who calmed an angry thread

People don't like being told that they are wrong, especially not by someone within the same "group" as them.  People are naturally willing to listen to the mods because they are given a higher level of power, respect, and responsibility.  If people don't listen to them, only the mods can take action against them.  If some regular user comes in and tells someone that they should stop breaking the rules, people will not respond well.

On top of that, these situations are rarely a case of one member politely informing another member that what they did was against the rules because that member did not know.  Most of the time when someone breaks the rules, they are either doing it intentionally or doing it because they interpret the rules differently than the staff.  This brings up 3 potential situations:

1. The user is intentionally breaking the rules
2. The user interprets the rules differently and thinks that what they did was fine
3. The backseat moderator is doing it to try to be "better" than the other user.

In all of these situations, backseat moderating hurts the situation.  Sure, there are some cases where it would help inform a member that they are breaking the rules, but most of the time it won't.  It's easier to just ban it all together.

Another benefit of the rule is that we all hear 1 consistent interpretation of the rules.  If we allow users to backseat moderate, then there are multiple versions of each rule floating around the site.  This encourages users to post things that aren't okay (or not post things that are okay) because of incorrect things that other members told them.